Petri

0:01 It's a revelation for a young person to realise that there's only so many people who actually are personate, what they do, who really want to, uh, develop their trade, their craft and become really good at it and set a love with others, and you can see the passion, uh, and the intensity, how they do the things while they're doing whatever they're doing. And that's invigorating. It's really amazing to see this type of people because they are so much into it, what they do that it's contagious. If you have to start to categorise yourself and putting yourself into labels and boxes, it usually means that you're also limiting yourself to those things and they start to affect how you perceive yourself and what you can do and all the chance, what comes with it. So it's actually better not to define things. And that lets you be free to explore and discover the new things and stumble upon those opportunities and possibilities which you didn't even realise in the morning that, hey, I could solve this.

1:10 And it's easy to categorise, it usually means that it's already common knowledge, so it's not anymore the competitive advantage, and hence not the leading it's and why they become successful. Impossible syndrome is batch of honour because most of the people tend to be most of the time in day within their comfort shown. So if you feel like that you're not exactly in your comfort zone, it means that you advance in developing and learning something new. Congrats. Nothing has any meaning except the one way give to it. Everything simply is. That's the ultimate subjectivity. The best leaders make others leaders. It satisfied your ex, but when you just met. If you think you will regredit later not doing something, then it's properly worth doing. Becoming good at something usually takes a long time, so it's a long game.

2:04 Doing things yourself, practically knowing how to do things is a pretty good skill, oftentimes, if not always better than trusting on other people's opinions or secondhand knowledge. If you observe people while they're in the room, they're sitting or whatever they're doing or whatever they do. You can see the inner state, like you said, it's very evident. Are they moving? Are the movements involuntary? Are they present? Are they conscious what's happening around them? Are they aware when they're scratching their knee? Are they doing sort of involuntary movements with some unconscious for them? Those who speak by silence do the most, listening, being present, while the other person is speaking, and not thinking what to say next or being distracted by some other things, is really powerful.

3:10 While you're listening, you can also observe all those signals. All those other things, what the other person is saying, non-verbally. These are really powerful things when it's your turn to persuade and start speaking and direct the conversation towards what you want to be the outcome. Regular thinking. One +one is true, that's linear, that's hard work, that's proved false. And what you describe is not that. It's creativity. It's basically packages of joy in the sense that it comes ready. It's often just purely there. And only thing you need to do is just describe it, put it down, flatten it.

4:00 If it's 3D, you flatten it to the words with satust, the strings of letters, and it's not exactly the same format, but that's the best you can do. And that's the difference. The founders who have that's of success, or at least that's how it feels. They often are really humble. They're always looking for market signals. They're always looking for the benefit the product producers to the end you. They're always looking for the end you to experience. They talk into customers relentlessly. It's continues, never stopping. loop. How do you keep on producing value? And that's the only commitment, basically. You are committed to solve a problem for the customers.

4:51 The idea doesn't matter in a sense that, well, it's only the focus of you have a problem, you want to fix it. You want to solve the problem. And the product is just that means to the end and the product can change if the problem stays and you're committed to that one. And that's really hard. And you still can fail. And there's I've been doing some episodes where there's been successful founders, done everything right, and still everything goes wrong. It's the market. It's the just pure luck or something which is out of your control and you still fail and they are successful founders who have succeeded before. So it's really humble in experience that it's not you. It's not something you have done and you still can fail. And it's not personal.

5:44 If you don't know anything about the area, you look like, hey, that looks so simple and then you just foolheartedly jump in and then you start to gradually realise that how hard it is. For example, Don Elect, founder of Spotify, just comment it in the latest acquire, acquire.fm podcast episode that if he would have known how hard it is to build Spotify, he would not have done it, but now obviously appreciates the experience, but knowing what he knows now, he wouldn't do it again, would have not done it, started at all. I think that's one of the things usually that you underestimate the effort it takes. When you have done a lot of work, you have tested a lot of things, which are not working. You have iterated, you have pivoted, you have done everything possible in order to find a way which finally works. This may take five, 10, 15 years before it really works and others start to recognise what you've been doing. You're looking back the thing and then should you say, oh, would you, or do you even consider sharing some of the knowledge and all the things you've been learning during that process?

6:56 Properly, some of it, yes, but most of it, you don't. Because it feels so simple and obvious now after all those struggles. That was not in the beginning the case, but now it is. So you don't even oftentimes feel like it's worth the effort or it just feels like it imposes syndrome situation if you start to set ridiculous things. And it doesn't matter if you set a knowledge because it's the experience, but you gained during the process, which is the valuable part. But there's another issue, which is often hard to communicate, and that is that how do you tell others? What do you know? Because they haven't gone through the journey. They don't know what to look for. They don't understand a thing, what you see.

7:44 They see the outside, but that's not the thing. That's the end result. And if they think that they can actually produce the same thing now just by seeing it, they are so mistaken, but it's really hard often to communicate. And you need to find someone who, if you're selling something along these lines. You need to find someone who already has struggled and realised how hard it is. And that's one of the paradoxes of the situation. I'm not worried about kids at all. Like Daniel mentioned, they're so quick to adapt to things, even maybe with, I'm not obviously a kid anymore, but just playing around with AI and all these tools and it doesn't take many minutes or hours. It's like, okay, why can't you do this and why we're going to do it that way and oh, why this doesn't work yet? And, oh, I have to do all this thing myself.

8:34 So, there's also this demographic thing that a lot of the population, at least in the West, is going to the wrong direction. We don't have new people coming taking over the old shops. So we're going to have a sort of 6 of people soon. So the robots and the AI are not coming. minute too early to solve that issue as well. The same thing has happened many, many times in the history. For example, when mainly having agricultural societies, and a lot of people were just working on fields, and then they were suddenly kicked out of them and going to the cities, and this is still the situation in China and some other places where a lot of people are looking for, even the horrendous working codaches in the factories, but it's still better than what's in the countryside. So this has happened over and over again and it's not going to stop and always we've been finding ways.

9:34 And as long as we have creativity, as long as we have ideas, things we want to create, and there's a demand for whatever we come up with, we will provide the supply for those things, and that's what's creating the value. Value is subjective, is not about producing things. So, um, like for 8 months, personal dynamics, uh, CEOs interview, he talks about that even now in the, especially in Europe, I think he mentioned, it's very difficult to find adequate amount of people, to work on logistics. It's just not possible to get the people there. So it's getting becoming a real issue. So the robot, the person dynamics and others robots are going to take over those field work, which was done before the tractors and other Messines took it over.

10:31 So the similar thing is not just happening. And I think it's just a really great thing. But obviously that transitory periods are hard for those who are not so fit to adapt to new cultures and technologies. Often it's not about the thing itself or the results. It's about fame, power, ideology, ignorance, monetary gain. Those are the things which are underneath and the rest is just means to the end. Detachment doesn't disconnect you from your bodily sensations or feelings, emotions. You acknowledge them and you notice them when they arising when they are at the peak and when they're fading away, the whole process. Usually, um, People notice that they are in the middle of it. They are already angry.

11:26 They didn't realise when that started to happen or when it's about to happen. It's just when you at the middle of it. But when you detached, it's like anything else you see coming being there for a while and going. So you can be a smiling Buddha inside, totally calm and relaxed while you're shouting and looking angry to the rest of the world and there's no contradiction there. That's the detachment part. We change the world by living in it. Accents speak louder than any words. By setting a practical example, others can mimic it and take inspiration from it, then that's all you have to say. Kickstarting the inspiration.

12:17 That's usually the heavy lifting. You have to get some inspirational impetus to start working and then you can download the packets and put it the best shape and form you can when the package is ready. You cannot ship it before it's ready, but you should not start before it's ready. And then you just print it out. Happiness is about expectation management and acceptance. With those two, you should be able to have a consistent level of content. It doesn't mean that you don't have, well, bad feelings or stuff happening to you, but you have a different approach to it because you can always choose how you take things. You cannot control events and that's part of acceptance. And the happiness part comes where you are not expecting certain outcomes because that put pressure and you may not get those things.

13:15 And I think that's part of the secret of happiness if you need to hack it if it's dependent on something external, some circumstances which are not in your control and what is really in your control. We cannot control our health either. We are not masters of even our own bodies. So, Those 2 concepts, expectations, and acceptance. I think are pretty powerful if you consider them. Another point might be that when you're talking to strangers, it doesn't matter how many they are, and if you consider it like a one-time event, so you may right or wrong, assume that you never see them again. So you don't care.

14:08 But here in AirChat, you just keep on bumping to these same people over and over again. So you have different expectations to the test. David, no, it's mentioned that in his one of the recent podcast appearances. I can put it to the comments telling. He said, he was advising or give interested a hint that, yeah, follow your curiosity, follow what's fun. Well, it was more about innovation and how do you do things which become significant. But he said that, well, we don't know. The only thing we know is that you just follow whatever feels nice and great for you. And that tends to lead to new discoveries as well. So I think it's a great advice.

14:57 Just try to end so have fun, at least you had a good time if nothing else come out of it. If you check in the engineering, how good is the code, how simple it is in a sense that everybody else can understand it as well? So there's less box and stuff, but also that does it scale, how deep and wide and all the axis they have already considered the issues. So are they looking forward? Do they really understand what we're building, what's going to happen next? I'm not talking about building something for too long when you went to early states is, but keeping all these things in mind while building, that's something which exceptional people have. For some people, why is enough?

15:49 You explain what needs to be done. For others, you need to tell what to do. And 3rd level is then how to do it. But for the brilliant people, they just come up with all those amazing ideas. So they implicitly already have the why. And they just come up with the new stuff. It's like, hey, I just did this. I've been going the other direction. I been doing book reviews for over a decade. There's tons of books I've been reviewing over the years in my block. But nowadays, I have skipped all of that more or less. I've been going to the audio format, more to the blocks tweets, this type of things. Obviously, there are some really good books, but they are right nowadays. I don't know what happens with the COVID, but a lot of the books became, I'm talking only nonfiction, became not really good.

16:42 So it's only a few ideas and it takes so much time to read it and it's just better to get it from the source. So I completely have a skipped track of what you have read type of thing and keep it all in your mind and take whatever is there and carry it with you as long as it holds. You cannot solve this within the dualism. So if you're part of it, it's not gonna never end. You have to get outside of it. And that's the detachment, you're purely observing, and you are not part of the action anymore. You are like a 3rd party observing what's happening, but yet doing that within. It is actually so foolhardy that I would even ask, is there anything in the whole universe which is staple? Well, the only time horizons, but it's just that the whole notion is just basically ridiculous.

17:41 And this is very evident if you looked carry off Miles Davis and how his music is always so refreshing, always new. And how he actually reinvented himself and also needed to find a new fans or people who listened to him almost every decade. And it was also painful for him if you look. It was not obvious and evident that he will find a new audience and he will still become someone. But I don't think he really cared. He really wanted to discover and do new stuff. The best way to learn something is to try to teach others the same thing. Also, if you're still in your deep learning curve, others tend to help you as well because they don't. Well, they see that you are eager to learn and they probably learn something as well and well, you're not exactly in their level yet, so there's no threat there either.

18:38 There are many layers, it is, and they don't need to be contradictionary to each other. Meanings we create for ourselves based on our knowledge, context and experience, and we can share them with others and they can share those, it doesn't mean that it's better or worse. That's what it is. They are just our meanings, our ways of structuring and understanding. Significance or insignificance is a different thing. And that's something you can then based on the meaning you can decide yourself. Everybody makes a difference. Supernova makes a big bang and what we do is significant. So meaning and significance don't need to be opposites or different things, in a sense that they're contradicting each other.

19:38 Our subjective world view based on the meanings we have created can then guide us to the purpose, which is putting the values and our preferences to the mix. So this gives a sense of purpose, a sense of joy, and it can be actually joy. Playfulness, what brings you joy. Guiding you to find your purpose and also clarify the meanings in your life. And these can change over time. They doesn't need to be the same or between persons. Also generationally there are differences and all these interesting things in themselves, but they are just constructs in our mind. Life is about rediscovering what already exists.

20:33 It's impossible to think your way to detachment on the internet. It's always good morning. We always in the beginning of infinity. Good chat. Siri is the new paper clip. Seeking makes you blind to the other stuff. happening at the same time. Therefore, you will only find something you already expect and it's not a surprise if you already know or expect to know what you're supposed to find. But if you're open to everything, anything can happen because you're not expecting anything and truly surprising things can come out of it. Another delight is that when you've already forgotten what you have done and discovered and you do it again, just from the scratch, exactly the same way. So you rediscover it and the delight that, hey, it's exactly the same result.

21:31 Hopefully, at the time, you actually expected to get that result because it was the right answer to the problem. Otherwise, you're just spinning the same wheels. Part of this mind is because it's just looking from a certain angle things and for those unknown unknowns, it's better not to label anything, better not to categorise it, better not to define them in any way, in order to observe it, see it as it is. And you can train yourself to do that. But usually it happens more subconsciously. And uh, You're not feeling when you're taking a picture, uh, let's say you're in some tourist site or whatever site or you're seeing some landscape and then you move backwards and even capture more of it and more of it. So this is how it is.

22:30 It's actually never ending. So maybe you have the macro few worst. So you first. So you see really closely things and then you start to move backwards and see more and more. At the same time, it's more detail. You have more perception to see the things, but you also grasp that is not such a tree. It is actually a park. No, it's actually a city block. No, it's an island. No, it's actually a region. And on and on it goes. So that's how... the perception works. So there's no fundamental truths. There's only your limited and always limited perception of these things, but you start to see it interconnect, in the twining, in the connectness of things, and you start to see the patterns, and all those things make it really beautiful, and you start to not lose, but you start to see the simplicity, in the complexity, and it starts to makes more sense. there.

23:33 There's more context to the appearant chaos, which was before. There's nothing to learn. There's nothing to teach. Only to discover and realise. Yeah, chat is like KitHop, but you commit BR and merge ideas. Certainly wired for the negative to keep us out of danger to keep us improving. But it's also that the positive usually just reinforces what we already know or at least hope to know that, yeah, things are working, but it's the negative which kickstarts innovation improvement process. So in that way, it's positive. It doesn't help with the mood, but I think it's good to get feedback because most of the time people are not giving you any feedback, so you don't even know. So you're in a place for ignorance in the sense that, yeah, maybe I'm doing good and people are just skipping. Happiness is living without expectations. Life is a perpetual joy of exploring and living in a continuous state of wonder and awe.

24:45 The answer is always more love, nevertheless. Only when you listen, you can create. Talk is no substitute for doing, if you know how, why you have to talk, the more you are, the less you need to be. Separate money from politics and you find very little interest on public matters. And so at the moment, that's all there is complexity is easy. Simplicity requires mastering. Only when you have done enough you can be. You are. What you think, say, and do. Nothing to say, everything to realise.

25:35 Happiness is a continuous flow of life. Only 2 things. The ones you think are important and those that are, rustling can partly be also because you are in the centre of attention and it's an uncomfortable spot. So your thoughts are not exactly in the speed of your speak. So that results that feel awards it is. Yet, I would say that the biggest thing is that you haven't really figured out what you want to say. Your thoughts are not clear. So your speak is in level with that. Have you noticed that when you're doing public speaking, where you are a little bit butterfly in your stomach? And you don't find the word or you think that you're stumbling something, oh, it takes 80s for you to get something across or somehow you fail that you didn't actually deal with it properly.

26:32 And then you watch it afterwards and you don't notice those things at all. I think that's a part of the psychology as well. We perceive the time going fast and it actually really is. So there's more stuff happening in your mind than what other people notice and what's coming out of your mouth as well. So that's also something to keep in mind. Time is relative and in this case, it's actually on your side. When you see someone giving that flawless, effortless, just perfect speeds. It very well may be that it's actually been done already a 100 times. Artists do it all the time. They start with small venues.

27:20 At the end of the tour, they go to the bigger arenas, just to get to the field, just to make everything perfect because it's a step process. You improve all the time. You see what works and what doesn't. same with the stand-up comedians. They start with small. They have some ideas and then they have the great ideas at the end and that's where the big crowd is. Life is simple. Thinking is complicated. Skills, knowledge, an experience, build the future. The future wealth is in the people, the past is in the tangible assets. If you don't know what to do, meditate, the impossible happens when the possible is in note. Humbleness is all it takes.

28:15 One thinks, but never knows. Who talks by silence, does the most unconditional existence without any reciprocity, is the true state of happiness. Right off the bed, I would say that intelligence is the capability of solving problems, then depending on how narrow or wide and generic or new the field is, then that puts some kind of a quality on it, if you want to put some attractive or libel on the level or depth of intelligence. I mean, it has a definition. So anything can be a problem and it can be even for animals, it can go through the most abstract things possible, like what is a universe, what is our existence, or it can be, how can I open the door, or it can be how I read the room? Should I speak here?

29:07 Should I be silent, am I wrong, the right place? It can go to all the extents. And that's why divide how I put it. Knowledge itself is not intelligence. So computer loaded, a lot of text is not intelligence, and that's where the problem solving comes in. you need to be able to solve problems. So the artificial intelligence can solve some problems, but those are the ones it's been given and defined beforehand. And that's the definition why I put it this way. So also you could go to the sematics, but I'm not really interested of sematics too much. So you could also say that the knowledge is just reading a lot of stuff and these dummies tend to, you know, to apply the proper way. You have to experience to know exactly what to do and why and practically can do those things.

30:01 But that's why I prefer the one I gave you earlier. If you don't need to, but you want to, you know, just for the fun of it, or you're just so inspired to do something. I think you're going to do more than a few hours of work. But the secret is the variance, the dynamic that you don't do the reproductive thing too long and you can switch from one topic to another, which is completely different. So you actually kind of way of recouping while you're doing the other thing. So if there's like a really hard problem to solve in a way that it doesn't take time, it takes the idea and it's just not coming. So if you're jumping to do something which is more mechanical and allows actually time to prove that idea and switching between these type of things. I think you can put quite a many hours if you want to, but obviously if you don't need to, that's totally fine.

30:58 So a few hours a day. Yeah. Focussed work. That's the way they go. Opens us is an example of, well, it's more into the Bitcoin related, but they've been also supporting those developers. So I think that's a really great way that have some kind of a stipends. Also pound is pound is. I'm not sure how effective they are if you want to be a full-time. developer that relies us purely on poundies. But if you have a approach, you know, the main developer, having something like that is obviously something which can help. But whether it's sustainable, it's then another matter. Just last week I was thinking that we really need early support on those full-time developers who are just having the project in the early states is and they are significant for a lot of people, but they're not the most sexiest because they are maybe backing up the decentralised world, supporting free speeds and the business models are not exactly maybe aligned with the advertising models and they don't want to build it in that centralised manner.

32:14 So they're not so easy to attract funding and in, but these projects in the early states, they don't have the user base either. So if they are like a wealthy donors who actually just want to support some of these courses, they could pick up these projects and give yearly or stipends or something along those lines and you can see whether they are actually catching up over what they're doing, it is completely open source project. So the kid helpies your friend in that case as well. There's already existing crowns and NCOs who haven't just committed the money to this cause. So there's a lot of money for thinking and tanking and lobbying, put this very little for the projects and building those tools. And that's just a distribution issue.

33:05 And also doing it less bureaucracy and less paper shuffling. I think it's important here. Because if you kill the projects with reporting and you expect to get the results before the project has started or nobody knows where the project really is going. So it's more about trusting the individuals and letting them do their thing and trusting the judgement of the recruitment process, if you will, for the ground. And then if something comes out of it, that's the bonus, but I think the trust in the recruitment of the right developer's code as, I think is the key here. Then they also the aspects which make the Oposus project, not so good in use eruption because the UX, the documentation and the supporting functions are not in place in a level that usually commercial projects are. So if there would be designers, market is, all these other functions, which are key and essential for a successful product, but tend to be overlooked, or they're not getting the support, and it's harder for these people to get a finance of support for their commitments.

34:25 I think these are key if you really want to have open source alternatives for the current existing commercial products. less travelled path. For example, is to support people who are documenting and translating kita projects to different languages and making the documentation better for all the users. So how about supporting them as well? In their work, because if you can translate some software to 30, 500 different languages. That's a powerful way of having an impact as well. You can look backwards and walk forward by looking backwards, like you described, looking how the steps led you to that place where you're standing at the moment and the people who were walking before you, or you can turn around and start to look at the other direction and obviously you don't see anything there because you haven't walked there yet. But in a similar way, all the steps you're taking will lead to certain paths.

35:32 And the peculiar thing is that many times people were rusting around the world, 100 years to 100 years ago, to the patent office exactly the same day, and having the same idea. So if one of them didn't do it, the other one did it. So in some of the occasions, the individual didn't matter that much, the history would have still figured it out that way. But in some cases, there has been dark turns, twists sometimes probably good terms as well, tossed by accident or some weird coincidences or by happenstances. So, interesting times. Finding people who are dedicated, passionate, what they do, doesn't matter what they do, what they are dentists, they are plumber, they are nuclear physicists, or quantum physicists. It doesn't really matter what you do, but how do you do it?

36:29 Why you do it? And those who are committed doing the work. are different, and there's so few of them around, that it's, uh, rarechem to find them. And often you start to converse with someone, and you start to go deeper to the topic, and beyond the level of the surface, the beaten path, where everything is said and been repeated a 1000 times, you realise that there really isn't anything. The person is not interested or doesn't know anything more. There isn't a curiosity.

37:20 There isn't the willingness to engage, there isn't the willingness to go fit. It just isn't there. But when you find them, it's just pure delight to discuss with them. It's not about eco, it's not about the topic itself. It's the joy of discovering sharing and doing things. And the curiosity, the guest keeps on going, the goals are changing. The milestones are celebrated, but also quickly paused. There's no need to pass in glory of the achievements and the merits because there's so much to explore. so much new to discover, so much fun to do new things in a new way and do them in a way that hasn't been done before.

38:24 And discussing with people like that is just a pure joy because there's never into the conversations and then topics to discuss. You can always go deeper. You can always find something new to explore because they have done so much. And they never stop. And my podcast was about finding and talking with these people. oftentimes I found them, some of them I knew them before, but there were some misses as well. But eventually what I figured out that it's really hard to find these people. Many times they are not in the limelight. I interviewed by the many who never spoken before publicly in a podcast or in any form like that, maybe in some event, but not really. And when you get on onto the spot and you realise that there's so much great stuff coming out of their mouth that It's just amazing what people do.

39:40 but seldom share. One could ask, is it harder to produce unique content nowadays? Because there's already some 100s of, if not 1000s of years of history behind us. So previously, maybe a 100 years, a 150 years ago, it was easy to do TikToks, when it was mute, black and white, and pasta kittens were inventing the art form. But is it still the same thing? And what if we are 150 years in the future, looking back, these primitive tools and say, oh, it was so easy those days. They didn't have this and that and whatnot. And there was so many undiscovered fails to do stuff. I guess it's always hard.

40:32 And if you look back, it's decade or maybe 2 decades. There's usually a few of these platforms, big companies who are incumbents, whether it's the Facebooks and Twitters and Googles who come out of the disruption and then comes the next one. TikTok was maybe the next generation before Google and those guys. But who are the next ones coming in? There's always these who are coming, but it usually takes a few decades and there's only a few of them. So it's really tough game, and only a few will win in big time, and the rest will, it will be bought out or they have some kind of success. So I don't think it's ever getting easier. There's always been a few newspapers, radio stations.

41:21 That's how it's always been. There was so many car companies in the turn off the 28th century, and then there were only a few. So it's always tough. Most of this is already being said, but nevertheless, it really love, if it's not unconditional. And if it's unconditional love, then you don't have any expectations, you don't have any Earth to define it. It's without any definition. So you let it be as it is without any expectations. And if it's not that type of love, then there's either fear or need. So there's something, what are you lacking? So you are trying to fulfil yourself with that object.

42:13 So you are objectifying the object of the love. And in this way, one can ask, is it genuine love at all? So, yes, it's the same word and there were those 4 definitions, but it's only the thought one, the real definition of love, and the rest is something else in disguise. Yes, most of it, it is ignorance, which is a really nice word, which is a lack of perception, lack of way to observe it more fully and understand and see beyond it. And if you see it that way that there's no polarity anymore, then usually the whole thing disappears like your fear and you stop chasing the tail of the snake or the not the same metaphor. So it's endless back and forth disappears and you can become at rest in that sense.

43:17 And that comes even from the physics. There's no absolute any point in our time and space. And the similar way that it's only relative. Everything is just relative, subjective, and there's only subjective experiences based on our subjective experiences and our definitions of everything, which are also subjective and unique in that sense. So we have just a very limited creeps and ways to see the world, but it's enough that we think that we can communicate and we are in some kind of understanding, which is not really much what's happening. Threats is good for commercial use. It's good for those who are using data does in model. So consumer brands, but also news agents, agencies, uh, media outlets, uh, putting out the new species.

44:14 Social media managers for plants are already using Instagram. So threats is the new IT. And this is where if you look, they're not so gone for the ball in Twitter, many of the brands, some of them are, obviously, but most of them are not. And mustardon is not really a place for brands. So there isn't really any other place to go, but now they have more text, they can express themselves better. So I would say that meta becomes threats becomes the commercial space, the middle crown. It's also probably the new Facebook. If you went in the early days of Facebook to talk and chat and it was friendly, easy threshold place to express your ideas. This is not the opportunity for these people who are, don't like or don't know what Twitter is or, are not there or are not good at that, but they, they want to do something more than just put up pretty pictures, which was not their thing.

45:14 So this is the new Facebook for those people. So I think there's a place for this type of people and it's properly quite a large amount of people. politics. It's the friction of change.