One more thing, I don’t like how the Venus project acts like it is putting forth some new idea, when all it is promoting is anarchy, which, from my limited knowledge of that political ideology dates back to the 1600s. Actually, I think it is funny, because I dont think the founders of the venus project even realize that they are promoting anarchy ( I think this is what Liam was pointing out). Or perhaps they do know, and are just trying to present it in such a way as to avoid the use of the term anarchy, due to the negative image that exist regarding anarchy. So perhaps they are the ones promoting a vast conspiracy against the population, trying to unwittingly convert the population into anarchist. But perhaps I shouldnt say that because it is probably politically incorrect in conspiracy theory circles to think that one of the conspiracy theorist is perpetrating a conspiracy. Wow, then I must be one over the top conspiracy theorist, ok I am making my own head spin now.

Just wanted to throw some thoughts out there and see what the responses are, personally, I think the venus project and zeitgeist are just more people trying to separate people from their dollar, just the same as the evil bankers are doing. They are just doing it to a niche market, instead of on a global scale and for that I applaud their ingenuity.

“Why should your opinion be taken seriously, but mine, or others be viewed as delusional? Just because our vision isn’t yours?”

Vision? I don’t have a “vision.” I’m 50 years old, I have EXPERIENCE and I developed a skill called “reading.”

From http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=65#19:

“Who makes the decisions in a resource based economy?

No one does. The decisions are arrived at by the introduction of newer technologies and the carrying capacity of the earth. Computers could provide this information with electronic sensors throughout the entire industrial, physical complex.”

That’s it!!! I did NOT leave out the part about democracy.

This is every dictator’s dream.

And it’s pretty obivous that the “NWO” type people with the population reduction goal are behind Zeitgeist.

I don’t have “visions” about programming computers, I know that you can program (manipulate) computers to provide any result you like. But that’s not even necessary, the sheeple in this society question nothing, you just tell them what to do and they’ll cheerfully do it.

I’ve literally had to deal with THOUSANDS of morons who told me that some idiotic procedure was what it was because the COMPUTER said so. People are already so conditioned to be controlled by machines.

Since I last posted here, I started a new currency, the Trado, and a store. I set up the banking site, the site with info about Trados and news and a store with organic products to accept partial Trado payments.

So when I saw a post about taking action at the Zeitgeist forum, I posted at http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=3&func=view&catid=5&id=50153&limitstart=10#50940

Looking at the responses so far, I’m afraid it was a giant waste of time. They already drank the Kool-aid.

I feel sorry for all these people with financial problems and so desperately looking for help. They remind me of the beggar kids in India, heading for the city with so much hope, only to be turned into mutilated slaves.

The whole problem with this review is it tries to criticise the VP’s ideas trying to use the current economics theory, which imo is quite useless… You cannot analyse a new ‘idea’ like this by using the existing process, especially if this ‘idea’ goes against most of the principles of the current process! I’ve studied economics from high school and early university… and after learning more about the ‘real’ monetary system, I have to say that all the theory we’ve learnt in school is pretty much pointless and only useful for placing yourself in some comfy role in business or govt… it is useless… and doest provide any real tangible value to society and people in general!

I think at least in the short term/near future, it would be very possible to see our minds apply the technology that we have so far thought of/created to better general living conditions for all people of the earth, though yes it would take a massive change of attitude from a lot of people… one of which is the unfortunate tendency of humans to ‘want to be better’ than the other fellow…

“As an example, in deciding whether or not to insulate your attic, you must compare the price of the insulation with the price of the energy to be saved. In an economy without money and prices to convey relative values–that is, an economy with just the goods, insulation and natural gas, you would not know if it made sense to insulate or not.”

First off, if you are cold because the winter winds are seeping through your roof, or some other external force is causing your roof to “require” insulation, then you would make the decision to insulate your roof.

Secondly, under the Venus Project’s projections for living, your house would be manufactured to your specifications, which means it would include any and all upgrades that you personally want, and it would not be a fixed residence. It could be upgraded and constantly evolve according to your changing tastes and lifestyle, without a price tag of course.

“Should you repair your old lawnmower or buy a new one?”

Again, there is no choice required here. When a product breaks down, any product, you can either go to the shopping center and get an updated version, or order it directly from your computer at home. As with any product that is removed from inventory in the future, an order for a new one to replace it is automatically placed in the system which regulates production and distribution worldwide. Even the evolution of a product would be a continually evolving cycle based on what is needed and what new technologies become available.

Once you receive your new product, the old one is sent to a facility, located under the cities, for 100% recycling.

“Obviously, what makes good economic sense depends on the prices of the repair and the new mower.”

Not in a resource based economy. Sorry, but what you would do in a monetary based economy doesn’t apply in a resource based economy because the only justifications for production is whether there is a need for it, and whether the resources, technology and creative ingenuity are available for it.

“An absence of money and prices wreaks havoc with consumer decisions–that alone is bad enough for economic well-being.”

No it doesn’t. Are you seriously going to tell me that we cannot make decisions about our own “well-being” unless we have a pricing structure in place to regulate what is and isn’t possible? That’s the biggest load of crap I’ve ever heard! We have people living on the streets because they don’t have enough MONEY to provide the basic necessities of life for themselves and their family. It’s not that these things can’t be provided, because we have the manufacturing capability and resources to house and feed everyone on the entire planet. We just can’t afford to! (not enough money to go around)

“But even more dramatically disruptive is this same absence at the production level of the economy. Does it make sense to add a bakery to the city”

If the city and the people have a need for said bakery, then the choice is to build one. Makes sense to me and doesn’t even require much thought.

“–the socialists would have no way of knowing since, again, all they have before them are the goods: land, concrete, flour, the anticapted future bread, etc.”

This statement doesn’t make sense to me. Of course the fact that these concepts were developed and presented in the 1920′s, now that shouldn’t matter in the overall discussion, should it?

“Taken a step further in the production process, should the socialist managers build a bulldozer to move dirt rather than using men with shovels;”

Of course you have the bulldozer built. This is one of the reasons to have an automated society that uses machines to do the labor instead of human beings. It is up to us to think and to create, not to do brain dead jobs that threaten our quality of life and make us ignorant.

“should the bulldozer be made of steel, or iron or some parts wood?”

The answer to any material question is whatever makes the most sense while providing the least disruptive footprint to the society and the environment.

“Should the steel be made of newly mined ore, or from reprocessed steel;”

Availability of materials answers this question. If the materials are available from previously recycled products, then this would be the first choice as it has less of an environmental impact. If the materials are not available then new material would be mined.

“should the mine work be powered by natural gas, steam, or electricity?”

The mine work would be powered by whatever means we use to power everything else, while maintaining maximum energy efficiency with as small an environmental footprint as possible.

If a new power source was required, say to mine material 5 miles below the oceans surface, then the requirements for such a system can be inputted into the global computer database and the system will output possible energy systems based on past knowledge, current technological achievements, available resources, technology requirements, safety and environmental impact, etc. Once the system is established, it is reviewed by all the earth’s people for acceptance into our society, and the plans are sent to manufacturing to produce several prototypes. These are tested and verified to work, and if the system can be used elsewhere on the earth, may go to the phase of mass manufacturing and distribution.

“Should the natural gas be transported by truck, train, or pipeline?”

The energy (not natural gas) would be transported in whichever way makes the most sense, taking into account safety, energy efficiency, and speed of service.

Let’s take oil for example, as Alex pointed out earlier. It would no longer be needed for energy use but we do still have a massive plastics and synthetics industry that uses oil, as well as for mechanical lubrication in some industries. Oil would be transported in whatever way is most viable to ensure safety, energy efficiency, speed of service, etc. Who chooses? We all input our ideas and the central computer that compiles all past, present and future knowledge creates that viable option. But we all have final say as to whether we proceed with the project or not.

“There’s a nearly endless number of economic decisions to be made in an advanced industrial economy.”

Yes, there are.

“In the money-less and price-less socialist economy, these decisions could not be made in any rational manner.”

Really? You mean to tell me that if money was “no object” we couldn’t figure out ways to accomplish anything? Just use your brain. It’s there for things other than just soap operas, movies, video games, politics, and all the other ridiculous things we use our minds for on a daily basis.

Duh…How do we build that dam without getting our feet wet? We use technology today to solve many problems, and this is no different, it’s just on a more massive scale. With the technical abilities and creativity within our society today the monetary system is a joke. It’s outright slavery and we are worth a hell of a lot more than that.

Hopefully I’ve made my point. Apply intellectual reasoning to any problem and you will find a solution. It’s not that difficult. Start thinking outside of the monetary/profit based system.

A final note:

“The socialist’s ultimate answer to the calculation problem was to have the socialist factory managers “play” market–that is, to pretend that the resources and outputs had prices and then adjust production accordingly!”

In other words, these people were complete and total morons, and because of this simple fact, you have to quote them instead of suggesting a more intelligent way of dealing with the problem.

And people wonder why humanity sometimes gets me down!

Christine:

I would highly recommend you actually order the movie “Future By Design, by William Gazecki” from The Venus Project as I have. What is covered in the “Zeitgeist-Addendum” documentary is really only scratching the surface. Everything that you suggested above that you would want in a society is included in the Venus Project’s ideas, and much more.

Your last comment about people “preaching their delusions all over the net” is the exact same thing you are doing. Albeit, you are doing it in a more constructive way than some people I have seen, but you are still giving your opinion as to what you think is best. Why should your opinion be taken seriously, but mine, or others be viewed as delusional? Just because our vision isn’t yours?

Any change as drastic as the Venus Project will need support from a great deal of society and that is the only reason I think it would fail. The people I talk to about this can’t wrap their minds around it because they are looking at it from a monetary based society where the elite, who ARE products of the system, have created a very chaotic world out of their own need for power and control.

“What comes to this machine debate it’s beyond the point. The ultimate question is who controls the resources, tools, devices and other human beings, and how?”

The “who” in this equation is all of us…every single person on the planet. The “how” is through a centralized computer infrastructure.

Petri:

“For monetary economic calculation is the intellectual basis of the market economy. The tasks set to acting within any system of the division of labor cannot be achieved without economic calculation. The market economy calculates in terms of money prices. That it is capable of such calculation was instrumental in its evolution and conditions its present-day operation. The market economy is real because it can calculate.”

The calculations here would be decided by the humans involved with the project, entering information into a computer interface. That computer would then calculate materials and resources needed, machine processes required, land requirements, ecological concerns, environmental impact, required time, etc and so on. The information calculated would be fed back to the humans who could then design the project based around what can physically be achieved. Once the project has been thought out and revised, those calculations would then be input back into the computer and a global poll could be conducted to measure public interest in the project. Once a final decision is made instructions would be sent to the manufacturing facilities. The computer simply decides what is the best course of action based on available resources and public opinion.

All machines would be built and maintained by other machines. All materials and resources would be collected, mined, assembled, and put into production by machines receiving the instructions from the localized computers.

There would be no government, there would be no elite, there would simply be a global computer network that every single person on the planet had access to, from their home, school, social establishments, or base of operations for whatever they themselves choose to do. You can input ideas, thoughts, suggestions, or you can draw knowledge from the system.

All resources on the planet would be monitored from space based satellites and earth based mechanical systems.

The machines would NOT “control us”. They are simply an extension of our ingenuity and creative minds. Everybody would have a say as to what is needed, what is wanted, and what should be done on a daily basis. This of course would require people to actually think for a change, instead of relying on some politician or maverick to make the “right” decisions FOR them, which is a big part of the problem today.

In todays world, the vast majority of us only ever make decisions based on what we personally need, or what our family or friends need. Our view is from a city perspective with state/country only entering our minds occasionally. Very few of us actually look at things from a global perspective.

I do. The Venus Project does. Let’s say you can fix things for your country. Who cares really? In a world where over one hundred million people die every single year from preventable hunger and preventable diseases, does your Fiat system or any of your ideas take them into account?

In a world where over 60% of the population makes less than $2 a day, I can tell you right now there is not enough money/gold/silver/anything else to go around. Not even close, or you wouldn’t have as many homeless people as you have just in America.

But who cares about the third world right?

The Venus Project would eliminate pollution through the use of geothermal power and other technologies, it would eliminate a TON of waste. Today we have 1,000 types of shampoo on the market because everyone is competing with everyone else. Do we need 1,000 types of shampoo? No, of course not. This equation would apply to every product on the planet. High efficiency, durable products that are the very best that technology can build, and we can dream up would be in use. No price tag. Like we have libraries today, tomorrow we could have shopping centers that work the same way. You need it, or want the newest cool gadget, you go get it.

If you have an idea for a new product or service, you don’t slave away part of your life at some boring job so you can save enough money to maybe get your idea to someone who can create it for you, and takes 60% of your profits, or your livelihood if the product doesn’t sell…..No, you enter your ideas into your computer interface at home, the computer taps the global system and decides if the resources are available and the project is physically achievable, and then conducts a planetary poll where people can vote for the usefulness of such an item. If the answer from the poll is a percentage over 50% for yes, the product goes into mass production, if under 50% the product is re-evaluated with a request from the people who voted, to make suggestions for betterment, and the process begins again.

Information on anything would be available 24/7 to everybody. I see the transition phase as being very hard. A lot of people need to get involved with this. The question of can we do it is stupid….of course we can. The technology available today just in the public domain could accomplish this, never mind what’s available in the classified world.

Anyways, my suggestion is to get educated on this before you start slamming it. Visit the Venus Project website and read all the information they have available there, get the movie Future By Design. I’ve been talking to people about removing the monetary system since I was 12 years old. It’s nice to see that other people share the same vision. It is the root of all evil because it allows the few to control the many, and slavery is not something I want my children to be born into…yet again.

P.S.

Space here does not permit me to cover even a fraction of a percent of the total knowledge I have to share on this and related issues.

“What comes to this machine debate it’s beyond the point. The ultimate question is who controls the resources, tools, devices and other human beings, and how?”

I was basing MY comments about the machines controlling EVERYTHING on Zeitgeist (Peter Joseph) published information. He does NOT propose a democracy, but the machines are programmed to make all decision to benefit the planet.

It is MY opinion that the people programming the machines and controlling everything will be the same people who are in control today.

Also, with regard to guns, Peter Joseph said in the Alex Jones interview that there would be no need for people to have guns, but that they COULD have guns. (Check the interview on youTube). He may have been pandering to Alex.

I find it tremendously tiresome that there are all these trolls posting all over the net PREACHING their delusions.

What comes to this machine debate it’s beyond the point. The ultimate question is who controls the resources, tools, devices and other human beings, and how?

Once again before the urge to response, read about tyranny, responsibility, liberty, primitive society and ethics.